Thank you for your writing on this centuries-old question… one thing brother: this question may come from an atheist, but it’s more likely the cry of every person whether a believer or not. I look forward to reading more as you continue.
Philosopher Alvin Plantinga argues that it may have been logically impossible for God to create the world that we know without allowing for the presence of evil. While God may indeed be all-powerful, it’s plausible that His power must be logical in nature. For instance, could God create a square circle? Or a married bachelor? Could He simultaneously both exist and not exist? Plantinga notes that most theologians “concede that not even an omnipotent being can bring about logically impossible states of affairs or cause necessarily false propositions to be true.”[4]
Excellent article. Though we are responsible for the sin and the evil in our world, God respects free will. Free will has been given to all of his sentient creation. 1/3 of the angels fell because their free will did not align with God’s will… “ I will not serve”. We have to understand that my free will is just as important as your free will, and God respects that. We want God to make everything wonderful, but that would mean that He would be constantly battling with free will. Instead, when free will goes bad, He has worked to turn evil on its head (e.g. The crucifixion of our Lord led to His resurrection and the opening of heaven to the Saints). Also, suffering is redemptive and can pay a price that justice demands of sin. If I give my suffering up to God he can use it for the souls in purgatory as well as for the souls here on earth who need our prayers and suffering to help them find God and/or help them get to Heaven.
Thank you for this article, I know it will help many.
You are speaking from a non-Catholic perspective. I am Catholic and the original canon was determined by the early Church and subsequently changed by Martin Luther where he removed the Apocrypha and relegated them to appendices.
Not all Christians believe in Sola Scriptura. Even in John’s book of the Apocalypse, he said that they could not write everything that Jesus had said and done for it would take up so many volumes of writing that would fill the earth. There is such a thing as Tradition. Also, one must understand what sin is and how it was atoned for in the past and with our own Lord. The Jews killed animals as a sacrifice of blood which was required for the price of sin. Our Lord shed his own blood to pay the ultimate price for our sin. If you look at all the suffering that He went through, you will understand that suffering is a component that is redemptive. Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection saved us, but it saved us from eternal damnation, there is still a temporal price to be paid for our sins. An example would be if a child threw a rock through your window and apologized, you would forgive him, but you would still expect him or his family to pay for your broken window. This is what the temporal price of sin is.
Purgatory as a place is not a name used in the Bible, it means a place of cleansing or purging. It is referred to in the Old and New Testaments. In 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.” And in, Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”
As with Judas in 2 Maccabees, he prayed for his fallen comrades, knowing his prayers could help them in the afterlife. If we all went right to Heaven, what would be the need for praying for them?
Christ died and was resurrected so that we may go to Heaven, but we must be completely clean before we enter such a holy place.
Thus, we should choose where we will suffer for our sins, and it might be better that we suffer here instead of the afterlife. Also, to offer up our suffering for others is a great act of love and God uses that love and that suffering for us and for others.
I appreciate your comment and perspective. Thanks for commenting. That said, I don't believe the apocrypha is canon. There is a reason that those books were left out even after being considered. At best they are interesting from a historical perspective. Likewise, tradition is not canon, whether that tradition is Catholic, Orthodox, etc.. "Tradition" is similar to what the Pharisees of Jesus's time did in making up all sorts of new "laws" beyond what was written in the Torah. While there are some borderline "traditions" that draw on scripture for their basis, there are many that do not and are in direct contradiction to the Bible and Sola Scriptura. Purgatory is an invention of the church that does not have a scriptural basis. The idea that our suffering is somehow connected to our redemption is likewise a tradition that has no scriptural basis. That's not to say that Christians won't suffer. They frequently do, and Jesus basically promised that Christians would suffer because he suffered also. He also promised us that the world would hate Christians because it first hated him. But suffering doesn't save. As a simple counter example, there are many people who suffer in this world who reject Christ and will still suffer after death in hell because of this rejection. Their suffering buys them nothing. In contrast, the Bible is very clear what saves: we are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is no mention of suffering or transferring our suffering to others for their redemptive benefit there. In short, it's just not a thing.
“Also, suffering is redemptive and can pay a price that justice demands of sin. If I give my suffering up to God he can use it for the souls in purgatory as well as for the souls here on earth who need our prayers and suffering to help them find God and/or help them get to Heaven.”
That part makes no sense. First, purgatory isn’t a thing. Second, suffering is not redemptive. The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), not through suffering. Suffering might accompany conversion or following Christ, but it isn’t redemptive (correlation is not causation, as they say). Third, God doesn’t use our suffering to help others get into heaven in any sort of transfer scheme. Yes, sometimes he wants to reach somebody and he asks a believer to sacrifice in order to do that, which may result in suffering, such as Paul going on his journeys to spread the gospel and being jailed, attacked, and shipwrecked along the way, but that suffering doesn’t transfer spiritually to another person and somehow redeem them. In reading my original response to this comment, I notice that I said the comments were “spot on.” This part wasn’t.
Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate that. Yes, your comments are spot on. My conclusion after researching this question is that it's really ALL ABOUT free will. You can't have love without free will, and because God wanted to be in a loving relationship with us, he had to grant us that. But when he grants free will, some fraction of creation will rebel. It's unavoidable. So, he created a rescue plan for those that choose it (sanctification through Jesus) and a separation plan for those who don't. Interestingly, God will give us exactly what we choose. If we want to be with him, he made a way and we can. If we don't want to be with him, he will grant us our wish.
Suffering must mean something in the big picture. God allowed His Son to suffer to become our Lord and Savior. The Beatitudes express this theory perfectly.
This remains the single best argument against theism, and while there are answers for it, none are fully satisfying, especially to someone who just lost their 7 year old son in a car accident or whose lifelong Christian mother has late stage Alzheimers.
For anyone who is struggling with this, I highly recommend Lewis' The Problem of Pain. Pascal's Pensees also have some things to say about this as well, but Lewis is the most accessible.
"The Problem of Evil", as it is known. (Search for it.)
This is one struggle I had to take directly to God, straight out, in prayer. Reading a bunch of proof-text scriptures wouldn't help. I received an answer and I am still around, still trusting and faithful. But unanswered questions remain, matters not revealed, and I wait patiently for whatever is to come, whether those questions are ultimately answered or not.
Alas, I don't feel the question is fully answered and leads to others.
The suffering that is hardest to know about is that of the children and the animals, and they are defenseless and cannot exercise their freewill. I do not understand this at all.
None of us are worth the evil that is perpetrated against children. God should hit the old reset button and start from scratch.
Why put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden at all?
As a parent, I would not give my son, who loves toy trucks, a big red truck and say, Son, do not play with this truck". It seems cruel.
Also, if God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, does that mean that all the horrors of the past are God's will?
And if all things are God's will, is there any point in praying for better outcomes?
Is he uncreated and co-equal to The Father, an equal member along with the Holy Spirit in the trinity? Or is he a created being, another God of some sort?
I might have missed it - did you explain why God put the serpent in the Garden?
Do you think God put the serpent in the garden?
Do you think he snuck in? Do you think God is not sovereign over absolutely everything?
Do you think God put the serpent in the garden?
Thank you for your writing on this centuries-old question… one thing brother: this question may come from an atheist, but it’s more likely the cry of every person whether a believer or not. I look forward to reading more as you continue.
Very true.
https://open.substack.com/pub/emmettcorbett/p/does-the-devil-have-flesh-and-blood?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=49zugr
Philosopher Alvin Plantinga argues that it may have been logically impossible for God to create the world that we know without allowing for the presence of evil. While God may indeed be all-powerful, it’s plausible that His power must be logical in nature. For instance, could God create a square circle? Or a married bachelor? Could He simultaneously both exist and not exist? Plantinga notes that most theologians “concede that not even an omnipotent being can bring about logically impossible states of affairs or cause necessarily false propositions to be true.”[4]
Excellent article. Though we are responsible for the sin and the evil in our world, God respects free will. Free will has been given to all of his sentient creation. 1/3 of the angels fell because their free will did not align with God’s will… “ I will not serve”. We have to understand that my free will is just as important as your free will, and God respects that. We want God to make everything wonderful, but that would mean that He would be constantly battling with free will. Instead, when free will goes bad, He has worked to turn evil on its head (e.g. The crucifixion of our Lord led to His resurrection and the opening of heaven to the Saints). Also, suffering is redemptive and can pay a price that justice demands of sin. If I give my suffering up to God he can use it for the souls in purgatory as well as for the souls here on earth who need our prayers and suffering to help them find God and/or help them get to Heaven.
Thank you for this article, I know it will help many.
You are speaking from a non-Catholic perspective. I am Catholic and the original canon was determined by the early Church and subsequently changed by Martin Luther where he removed the Apocrypha and relegated them to appendices.
Yep, I'm definitely not Catholic.
God can use my suffering for the souls in purgatory? Where in the bible is that?
Not all Christians believe in Sola Scriptura. Even in John’s book of the Apocalypse, he said that they could not write everything that Jesus had said and done for it would take up so many volumes of writing that would fill the earth. There is such a thing as Tradition. Also, one must understand what sin is and how it was atoned for in the past and with our own Lord. The Jews killed animals as a sacrifice of blood which was required for the price of sin. Our Lord shed his own blood to pay the ultimate price for our sin. If you look at all the suffering that He went through, you will understand that suffering is a component that is redemptive. Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection saved us, but it saved us from eternal damnation, there is still a temporal price to be paid for our sins. An example would be if a child threw a rock through your window and apologized, you would forgive him, but you would still expect him or his family to pay for your broken window. This is what the temporal price of sin is.
Purgatory as a place is not a name used in the Bible, it means a place of cleansing or purging. It is referred to in the Old and New Testaments. In 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.” And in, Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”
As with Judas in 2 Maccabees, he prayed for his fallen comrades, knowing his prayers could help them in the afterlife. If we all went right to Heaven, what would be the need for praying for them?
Christ died and was resurrected so that we may go to Heaven, but we must be completely clean before we enter such a holy place.
Thus, we should choose where we will suffer for our sins, and it might be better that we suffer here instead of the afterlife. Also, to offer up our suffering for others is a great act of love and God uses that love and that suffering for us and for others.
I appreciate your comment and perspective. Thanks for commenting. That said, I don't believe the apocrypha is canon. There is a reason that those books were left out even after being considered. At best they are interesting from a historical perspective. Likewise, tradition is not canon, whether that tradition is Catholic, Orthodox, etc.. "Tradition" is similar to what the Pharisees of Jesus's time did in making up all sorts of new "laws" beyond what was written in the Torah. While there are some borderline "traditions" that draw on scripture for their basis, there are many that do not and are in direct contradiction to the Bible and Sola Scriptura. Purgatory is an invention of the church that does not have a scriptural basis. The idea that our suffering is somehow connected to our redemption is likewise a tradition that has no scriptural basis. That's not to say that Christians won't suffer. They frequently do, and Jesus basically promised that Christians would suffer because he suffered also. He also promised us that the world would hate Christians because it first hated him. But suffering doesn't save. As a simple counter example, there are many people who suffer in this world who reject Christ and will still suffer after death in hell because of this rejection. Their suffering buys them nothing. In contrast, the Bible is very clear what saves: we are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). There is no mention of suffering or transferring our suffering to others for their redemptive benefit there. In short, it's just not a thing.
“Also, suffering is redemptive and can pay a price that justice demands of sin. If I give my suffering up to God he can use it for the souls in purgatory as well as for the souls here on earth who need our prayers and suffering to help them find God and/or help them get to Heaven.”
That part makes no sense. First, purgatory isn’t a thing. Second, suffering is not redemptive. The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), not through suffering. Suffering might accompany conversion or following Christ, but it isn’t redemptive (correlation is not causation, as they say). Third, God doesn’t use our suffering to help others get into heaven in any sort of transfer scheme. Yes, sometimes he wants to reach somebody and he asks a believer to sacrifice in order to do that, which may result in suffering, such as Paul going on his journeys to spread the gospel and being jailed, attacked, and shipwrecked along the way, but that suffering doesn’t transfer spiritually to another person and somehow redeem them. In reading my original response to this comment, I notice that I said the comments were “spot on.” This part wasn’t.
Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate that. Yes, your comments are spot on. My conclusion after researching this question is that it's really ALL ABOUT free will. You can't have love without free will, and because God wanted to be in a loving relationship with us, he had to grant us that. But when he grants free will, some fraction of creation will rebel. It's unavoidable. So, he created a rescue plan for those that choose it (sanctification through Jesus) and a separation plan for those who don't. Interestingly, God will give us exactly what we choose. If we want to be with him, he made a way and we can. If we don't want to be with him, he will grant us our wish.
Exactly. Contrary to what atheists say, we have a very good and loving God.
Suffering must mean something in the big picture. God allowed His Son to suffer to become our Lord and Savior. The Beatitudes express this theory perfectly.
Not only Noah’s find favour in the Lord, He also knows the bloodline of Noah’s is pure too and without contamination of his DNA.
This remains the single best argument against theism, and while there are answers for it, none are fully satisfying, especially to someone who just lost their 7 year old son in a car accident or whose lifelong Christian mother has late stage Alzheimers.
For anyone who is struggling with this, I highly recommend Lewis' The Problem of Pain. Pascal's Pensees also have some things to say about this as well, but Lewis is the most accessible.
"The Problem of Evil", as it is known. (Search for it.)
This is one struggle I had to take directly to God, straight out, in prayer. Reading a bunch of proof-text scriptures wouldn't help. I received an answer and I am still around, still trusting and faithful. But unanswered questions remain, matters not revealed, and I wait patiently for whatever is to come, whether those questions are ultimately answered or not.
The same is available to all who can do the same.
Thank you David.
Sharing. 🙏🙏🙏
Alas, I don't feel the question is fully answered and leads to others.
The suffering that is hardest to know about is that of the children and the animals, and they are defenseless and cannot exercise their freewill. I do not understand this at all.
None of us are worth the evil that is perpetrated against children. God should hit the old reset button and start from scratch.
Why put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden at all?
As a parent, I would not give my son, who loves toy trucks, a big red truck and say, Son, do not play with this truck". It seems cruel.
Also, if God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, does that mean that all the horrors of the past are God's will?
And if all things are God's will, is there any point in praying for better outcomes?
These questions keep me up at night.
All great questions. I'll use some of those as the basis for future posts, I think.
That would be great. I value your thoughts. Thanks.
Is Jesus God?
Is he uncreated and co-equal to The Father, an equal member along with the Holy Spirit in the trinity? Or is he a created being, another God of some sort?
It would be more helpful if you'd just give a short, single sentence answer to the questions. You're a Jehovah's Witness, right?
Go be political somewhere else.