None of us have a high enough view of God and His plan because we are unable to fully comprehend His awesomeness. Today the church see.s to have a lower view of God than any time in history (likely one of the signs of the end times). People that pick and choose which of God's traits and rules to believe are unfruitful Christians at best and tares among the wheat at worst. It breaks my heart o see so many people, who claim to be Christians denying God's clearly articulated word.
Thank you for faithfully sharing God's word in a gentle and loving, but firm manner.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and reflections on this sensitive topic. It's clear that you've given it much thought, and your passion for sharing the truth of God's Word is commendable.
It's important to remember that the God we serve is a loving and merciful God, but also a just and righteous one. It's true that many people may struggle with the concept of hell, but as you've pointed out, it is a reality that cannot be ignored. It's vital for us to seek the truth and not fall into the trap of creating a god that suits our own desires.
However, let's also remember the power of grace and compassion in our conversations with others. We are all on a journey, and each person's understanding and relationship with God can grow and change over time. By showing love, patience, and understanding, we can help others see the beauty and truth of God's Word.
Let us pray for those who are struggling with their faith or have misconceptions about God's character. May we be a light to them, guiding them towards the truth and love of our Heavenly Father.
While I agree with everything you said, I think the church in the "first world" (USA, Europe, Australia, etc.) over the last few decades has been cowed by the ungodly into trying to avoid offending anybody (e.g., "How dare you tell me that my lack of belief in Jesus and my behavior will send me to hell!"). Yes, we should be sensitive and not be deliberately offensive, but we must be CLEAR about what the Bible says. And we must not take negative reactions to the truth as an indication that we must back off or stay quiet. Jesus is clear that the world hates him and his message, and it will hate us by extension. Yet he told us to take the gospel to the world because it is the path to life. And Paul makes clear in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NLT): "The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." We will definitely get negative reactions to the gospel message. And sometimes we'll save somebody from eternal damnation and the angels will rejoice. It takes courage to speak the truth. But yes, always speak the truth in love and choose your battles carefully. Thanks for your comment. Much appreciated.
The old testament teaches there are gods, Exodus 20:3, and Jesus believed in gods, John 10:34. Perhaps some gods have a hell while other gods do not. Then both sides can be happy with their chosen god.
Um. No. Neither of those verses say what you're suggesting. Yes, other "gods" exist in the sense that people make them up and follow them, but the Bible is quite clear throughout that there is only one true God. All others are false and will be destroyed at the final judgement.
In John 10:34, he's quoting Psalm 82. In Psalm 82, God is using the title "elohim" (literally "gods," with a lowercase "g") to refer to judges. This is not he only time in the OT where this is done (Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8-9). A modern parallel might be when somebody sits in a position of power and somebody else says "Dude, you're a god." But let's be clear how all of Psalm 82 reads (NASB):
82 God takes His position in [a]His assembly;
He judges in the midst of the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Save them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk around in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 [b]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 Nevertheless you will die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise, God, judge the earth!
For You possess all the nations.
It's clear that God is superior to these other "gods" and that they will all "die like men."
So, in John 10, he's arguing with the religious leaders who think he's blaspheming. And he's effectively quoting Psalm 82 to say (paraphrasing) "God called these judges 'gods,' and they're just men. Given the works that I've performed, why is it blasphemy for me to be called 'god?'"
Here's a larger context for John 10 which makes this clear (NIV):
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
Thank you, David. The gospel of libertinism takes God’s grace and says since you are under it that it doesn’t matter what you do. I think many in this arena end up forming God in their image rather than understanding that in fact they were formed in His. God Bless!
I have heard a version of “My god ... loves people and wouldn’t send them to hell" from two pastors (one retiring and being succeeded by the other) at one of my former churches. I visited them both after I left, and compared gospels with them. Their version simplified to "God is love -- only -- no wrath". They didn't try to change the Bible, they just didn't believe quite a lot of it. Not exactly postmodernist, but rather simply modernist. One was UCC/Congregationalist and the other was PC(USA).
I grew up in a conditionalist church, returned to it as an adult, and belonged to a different one after that. I have questions about tradition vs. scripture in this regard, but my questions don't have any bearing upon what God is going to do, and I don't take a hard stand on the matter. God's wrath, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire are clear in scripture.
The question is, do the lost also "have eternal life", but of a different character. The answer evidently comes easily if you were raised in a tradition that says "yes". I have sifted through various other "different" things I was taught growing up, rejecting them based upon scripture, bringing me into alignment with orthodox teaching. This matter, however, is proving more difficult.
Revelation 20:10, which Dee quoted, says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. I assume that everyone who ends up there suffers the same fate. That is, they still exist (they are not snuffed out of existence), but they are eternally separated from God. So, it’s sort of an eternal death, but in an actively-tormented sense. But yes, good question.
Yes, I've looked at that passage, for that reason, many times, in English and in Greek. In every apologetic I have read on the subject there has had to be some kind of assumption. I've asked God for one that doesn't do that, and they do come in from time to time, but so far every new one does. I have, however, learned from that that some of the conditionalist counter-arguments don't actually work. Interesting. I'll keep asking.
You'll never be able to save all of humanity. There are too many who create a god in their own image. One who is a believer pushes forward to know and learn more from Gods Word. There were men who were chosen to write His words down for us. I know there are too many today who scoff at Christianity. Cults and unbeliefe run rampent. The spiritual evil is unseen and after all it can tempt. I'll keep them in prayer. Thank you for the substack today. I appreciate it. Keep reaching out. Ppl are in need of the Lord now more than ever. Blessings
Your reasoning is circular. "Doctrine" is determined by humans. Humans wrote the books of the OT, NT and all the other religious texts from around the world. That these texts are the "word of God" is simply a matter of assertion on the part of humans. In fact, the "doctrines" of Christianity were developed by very human theologians during the several hundred years after Christ, arbitrarily putting their stamp of approval on some assertions over others, rejecting some texts and keeping others, often with senseless and terrible violence. What your friend was saying was that she did not believe the texts asserting that the angry Christian god sent people to hell after death. As a matter of fact, there is little in the scriptures that supports such a belief, which is why Jews don't believe in hell, and neither do some Christian sects like Jehovah's Witnesses. The scriptural support is not strong.
There is so much more in the bible about hell if you care to check.
''But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
''And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.''-Revelation 20:10
''But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.''-Matthew 5:22
Written by a Rabbi;
We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
I have read the Bible cover to cover several times. I also have read about disagreements about translating gehenna and other words referring to judgment. Revelation is a prophecy about the fall of the Roman empire and not meant to be taken as a literal description of "end times." Any Jewish scholar will also tell you that Jews from time immemorial have believed that the OT books are not literal but metaphoric. I completely concur with the Rabbi you mentioned that we are not meant to interpret "hell" as a place of eternal torture., but as a place where we are shown our lives and cleansed of our errors and faults. In other words, the woman you talked to was correct: the way these passages of the Bible have been interpreted for two thousand years is wrong, and God is NOT the way hellfire preachers have depicted him.
I agree with David's article, but sure enough, Linda also has a very good point. The Bible is a very problematic text, from a historical point of view. Too much corruption (by humans!) has taken place tot take it quite so literal. However, I do think the general drift is clear. The ten commandments stand, and debauchery and child sacrifice are an abomination in God's eye. That is why I do cringe when I see a rainbow flag flying from a church's bell tower. Does the pastor of this church know better than God, better than the Bible? I ask myself. It seems very arrogant.
Take the bible as you believe it is for your reality. Each one of us will discover the truth in the end. As for me and my home, we will serve the Lord.
Very good well said.
None of us have a high enough view of God and His plan because we are unable to fully comprehend His awesomeness. Today the church see.s to have a lower view of God than any time in history (likely one of the signs of the end times). People that pick and choose which of God's traits and rules to believe are unfruitful Christians at best and tares among the wheat at worst. It breaks my heart o see so many people, who claim to be Christians denying God's clearly articulated word.
Thank you for faithfully sharing God's word in a gentle and loving, but firm manner.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and reflections on this sensitive topic. It's clear that you've given it much thought, and your passion for sharing the truth of God's Word is commendable.
It's important to remember that the God we serve is a loving and merciful God, but also a just and righteous one. It's true that many people may struggle with the concept of hell, but as you've pointed out, it is a reality that cannot be ignored. It's vital for us to seek the truth and not fall into the trap of creating a god that suits our own desires.
However, let's also remember the power of grace and compassion in our conversations with others. We are all on a journey, and each person's understanding and relationship with God can grow and change over time. By showing love, patience, and understanding, we can help others see the beauty and truth of God's Word.
Let us pray for those who are struggling with their faith or have misconceptions about God's character. May we be a light to them, guiding them towards the truth and love of our Heavenly Father.
While I agree with everything you said, I think the church in the "first world" (USA, Europe, Australia, etc.) over the last few decades has been cowed by the ungodly into trying to avoid offending anybody (e.g., "How dare you tell me that my lack of belief in Jesus and my behavior will send me to hell!"). Yes, we should be sensitive and not be deliberately offensive, but we must be CLEAR about what the Bible says. And we must not take negative reactions to the truth as an indication that we must back off or stay quiet. Jesus is clear that the world hates him and his message, and it will hate us by extension. Yet he told us to take the gospel to the world because it is the path to life. And Paul makes clear in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NLT): "The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." We will definitely get negative reactions to the gospel message. And sometimes we'll save somebody from eternal damnation and the angels will rejoice. It takes courage to speak the truth. But yes, always speak the truth in love and choose your battles carefully. Thanks for your comment. Much appreciated.
The old testament teaches there are gods, Exodus 20:3, and Jesus believed in gods, John 10:34. Perhaps some gods have a hell while other gods do not. Then both sides can be happy with their chosen god.
Um. No. Neither of those verses say what you're suggesting. Yes, other "gods" exist in the sense that people make them up and follow them, but the Bible is quite clear throughout that there is only one true God. All others are false and will be destroyed at the final judgement.
Jesus didn’t say we were making up gods, he said the scriptures say you are gods. Do you know who the other gods are?
In John 10:34, he's quoting Psalm 82. In Psalm 82, God is using the title "elohim" (literally "gods," with a lowercase "g") to refer to judges. This is not he only time in the OT where this is done (Exodus 21:6 and Exodus 22:8-9). A modern parallel might be when somebody sits in a position of power and somebody else says "Dude, you're a god." But let's be clear how all of Psalm 82 reads (NASB):
82 God takes His position in [a]His assembly;
He judges in the midst of the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Save them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk around in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 [b]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 Nevertheless you will die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise, God, judge the earth!
For You possess all the nations.
It's clear that God is superior to these other "gods" and that they will all "die like men."
So, in John 10, he's arguing with the religious leaders who think he's blaspheming. And he's effectively quoting Psalm 82 to say (paraphrasing) "God called these judges 'gods,' and they're just men. Given the works that I've performed, why is it blasphemy for me to be called 'god?'"
Here's a larger context for John 10 which makes this clear (NIV):
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Sorry I don't have time to continue on with the discussion.
Thank you, David. The gospel of libertinism takes God’s grace and says since you are under it that it doesn’t matter what you do. I think many in this arena end up forming God in their image rather than understanding that in fact they were formed in His. God Bless!
I have heard a version of “My god ... loves people and wouldn’t send them to hell" from two pastors (one retiring and being succeeded by the other) at one of my former churches. I visited them both after I left, and compared gospels with them. Their version simplified to "God is love -- only -- no wrath". They didn't try to change the Bible, they just didn't believe quite a lot of it. Not exactly postmodernist, but rather simply modernist. One was UCC/Congregationalist and the other was PC(USA).
I grew up in a conditionalist church, returned to it as an adult, and belonged to a different one after that. I have questions about tradition vs. scripture in this regard, but my questions don't have any bearing upon what God is going to do, and I don't take a hard stand on the matter. God's wrath, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire are clear in scripture.
The question is, do the lost also "have eternal life", but of a different character. The answer evidently comes easily if you were raised in a tradition that says "yes". I have sifted through various other "different" things I was taught growing up, rejecting them based upon scripture, bringing me into alignment with orthodox teaching. This matter, however, is proving more difficult.
Revelation 20:10, which Dee quoted, says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. I assume that everyone who ends up there suffers the same fate. That is, they still exist (they are not snuffed out of existence), but they are eternally separated from God. So, it’s sort of an eternal death, but in an actively-tormented sense. But yes, good question.
Yes, I've looked at that passage, for that reason, many times, in English and in Greek. In every apologetic I have read on the subject there has had to be some kind of assumption. I've asked God for one that doesn't do that, and they do come in from time to time, but so far every new one does. I have, however, learned from that that some of the conditionalist counter-arguments don't actually work. Interesting. I'll keep asking.
You'll never be able to save all of humanity. There are too many who create a god in their own image. One who is a believer pushes forward to know and learn more from Gods Word. There were men who were chosen to write His words down for us. I know there are too many today who scoff at Christianity. Cults and unbeliefe run rampent. The spiritual evil is unseen and after all it can tempt. I'll keep them in prayer. Thank you for the substack today. I appreciate it. Keep reaching out. Ppl are in need of the Lord now more than ever. Blessings
Your reasoning is circular. "Doctrine" is determined by humans. Humans wrote the books of the OT, NT and all the other religious texts from around the world. That these texts are the "word of God" is simply a matter of assertion on the part of humans. In fact, the "doctrines" of Christianity were developed by very human theologians during the several hundred years after Christ, arbitrarily putting their stamp of approval on some assertions over others, rejecting some texts and keeping others, often with senseless and terrible violence. What your friend was saying was that she did not believe the texts asserting that the angry Christian god sent people to hell after death. As a matter of fact, there is little in the scriptures that supports such a belief, which is why Jews don't believe in hell, and neither do some Christian sects like Jehovah's Witnesses. The scriptural support is not strong.
There is so much more in the bible about hell if you care to check.
''But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
''And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.''-Revelation 20:10
''But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.''-Matthew 5:22
Written by a Rabbi;
We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.
If you are interested in more, this is his url.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm
I have read the Bible cover to cover several times. I also have read about disagreements about translating gehenna and other words referring to judgment. Revelation is a prophecy about the fall of the Roman empire and not meant to be taken as a literal description of "end times." Any Jewish scholar will also tell you that Jews from time immemorial have believed that the OT books are not literal but metaphoric. I completely concur with the Rabbi you mentioned that we are not meant to interpret "hell" as a place of eternal torture., but as a place where we are shown our lives and cleansed of our errors and faults. In other words, the woman you talked to was correct: the way these passages of the Bible have been interpreted for two thousand years is wrong, and God is NOT the way hellfire preachers have depicted him.
I agree with David's article, but sure enough, Linda also has a very good point. The Bible is a very problematic text, from a historical point of view. Too much corruption (by humans!) has taken place tot take it quite so literal. However, I do think the general drift is clear. The ten commandments stand, and debauchery and child sacrifice are an abomination in God's eye. That is why I do cringe when I see a rainbow flag flying from a church's bell tower. Does the pastor of this church know better than God, better than the Bible? I ask myself. It seems very arrogant.
Take the bible as you believe it is for your reality. Each one of us will discover the truth in the end. As for me and my home, we will serve the Lord.
Be blessed.