Mar 4Liked by David Roberts

This is perhaps my favorite piece of writing about my favorite prayer. I am changed and grateful. Brilliant.

Expand full comment
Feb 27Liked by David Roberts

David - the Gloria Patri and the Doxology are ingrained in my memory. We said them in the Lutheran church which I attended for a few years - don't really remember how many. Clearly in the years where our brains soaked up so very much, so very easily. It's fascinating that I can still recite them over 50 years later, word for word.

Thank you for this. I will read it again and again. I remember my dear daddy told me to always be in fellowship with the Lord when you pray - to ask for His forgiveness because all of us sin, every single day. No coincidence that we "met" through a Substack comment, right????? God bless you

PS - on a funny note. We used to say this prayer before dinner (without fail, we always sat down to dinner as a family). Gracious Lord, bless this food. That may serve thee in health and strength. Amen. We said it so fast, anyone who didn't know that prayer would have no idea what we were saying!

Gosh how my heart aches some days for those precious, simpler times.

Expand full comment

I am with you, especially with regard to liturgical recital, and yet I say this prayer from memory regularly in my personal prayer practice, in the biblical Greek (as closely as we can come to that today), thinking about the meaning of the words as I go, and realizing that the original words of Jesus were likely in Aramaic. It is a reminder of the prayer pattern given to us by Jesus.

The KJV words are close to the Greek, but not quite the same. I'm sure scholars and translators and publishers concerned with whether people will buy their version if it disagrees with the KJV can explain all that away, but I happen to like to go for the plain meaning of the text. I ask God for guidance, not scholars, although I read what they have to say, and I appreciate but don't deify the translators, without whom I would be lost in translation.

As for what I think of the influence of the publishers, never mind. Oh all right, how about "...μὴ ποιεῖτε τὸν οἶκον τοῦ πατρός μου οἶκον ἐμπορίου." (Hint: from John 2:16. The root of "ἐμπορίου" -- "of business" -- makes for an interesting word study that reaches from Ezekiel 28:16 in the LXX, or perhaps earlier, to "the merchants of the earth" -- οἱ ἔμποροι τῆς γῆς -- of Revelation.) It would also seem to apply to Bible publishers.

I prefer the longer Matthew version over Luke. In the matter of "debts" vs. "trespasses", I note that Matthew 6:12 says "our debts", τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, "obligation in a moral sense" (BDAG), and "our debtors", τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν, "one who is under obligation in a moral or social sense" (BDAG). It is a Greek construction that equivalences and emphasizes our being forgiven and our forgiving others, as echoed again in vv.14-15.

Luke 11:4 uses "ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν" for "forgive us our sins", employing the more familiar (to many) "hamartias" -- sins, in plural direct object inflection. V.4 is more complex in the Greek, καὶ γὰρ αὐτοὶ ἀφίομεν παντὶ ὀφείλοντι ἡμῖν, which is something to the effect of "then also we forgive all owing us". That may be too literal, but it more or less makes sense. The noun for 'our debtors' in Matthew becomes the participle for 'owing' in Luke, but the words are visibly similar to each other, ὀφειλέταις vs. ὀφείλοντι .

I lean toward understanding debts as referring to that which we owe God for what we have cost Him, and what others owe us for what they have cost us. I do not understand it as normalizing harm, or anything of the kind.

There are plenty of other subtleties in the Greek of Mt. 6:9-13, but I think that's quite enough for now. I have not even a quibble with what you have written.

Expand full comment

Jesus (London1958) gave another "Lords Prayer" for The New Age


“Oh Divine and Wondrous Spirit!

Oh Everlasting Lord of Hosts!

Send forth, now, through me Thy great and lasting Power.

Allow me, oh mighty God, the lasting privilege,

Of radiating to all the world Thy great Love,

So that those who suffer may be given the Power and energy to rise above their weaknesses.

Oh mighty God, in great humility do I ask you To send forth Your Power.

To give to me this great lasting privilege,

Of being a channel so that my suffering brothers

May be helped and guided and healed and Lifted into Thy Light.

So that they who know not may look up,

And in doing so, receive through their Higher Selves, Your Divine Counsel

Oh mighty God, this day have you granted me, a Divine privilege

I ask you, now, give me the strength,

So that never again will I turn from my inner vision of you

Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.*

In praise of your Greatness, Oh God,

Doth my Soul sing

Grant it energy to sing on Forever .

* (Shanti means Peace)

(Copied from my book “Metaphysics and The New Age”).

Expand full comment
Mar 4Liked by David Roberts

Takk skal du ha Celia

Jeg lærte om din tro

elsker deg

Truth of me. I suffer from alcoholism I have an unsatisfied mind which C judges you and me. The treatment for my disease is to try to maintain a constant contact with God. You are correct when you said you shouldn’t parrot the Lord’s Prayer, instead prayer should come from the heart.

My favorite pray I use often

God I offer myself to Thee. To do with me and build with me as Thy will

Relieve me of the bondage of self so I may better do thy will.

Take away my difficulties so they may bear witness to those that still suffer of Thy Power, Thy Love and Thy way of Life.

Expand full comment
Mar 4Liked by David Roberts

I attended the Methodist church my whole childhood until I was 12, and I know those, too. They are fixed in place in me, as you say. I can remember my mother teaching my sister and me our prayers at bedtime every night, at ages three and four or so. We would start with Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. I now consider that an absolutely morbid child's bedtime prayer... I was obsessed with death by the time I was ten. Then, the Lord's Prayer, and immediately following, God Bless--and we would name everybody by name, grandparents and all other relatives. I turned my back on Christianity a long time ago, and am learning about Christ, and seeing how much I can align with Christ energy again...

Expand full comment
Mar 4Liked by David Roberts

This works just as well for this very ecumenical Jew.

Expand full comment
Mar 4Liked by David Roberts

These simple acts can change the world.

Expand full comment

Thank you for this.

The Lord's Prayer. They are words that when I say them -- 𝒓𝒆𝒂𝒍𝒍𝒚 say them -- bring me to tears almost every time. Their profundity is virtually unmatched. Tears are coming now, just thinking about it.

Thanks again.

Expand full comment

We say or sing grace. The sung version in Ukrainian is:

We thank you Lord

for all that is on our table

We pray that everybody in the world

will have bread on the table.

We occasionally sing the Doxology.

We have a fairly long list of people we pray for. Soldiers and their wives, and families trapped in the Russian occupied zones.

Expand full comment
Mar 15Liked by David Roberts

I have often felt detached while reciting the Lord's Prayer over and over like we were instructed in church. often times I just talk to God, as if he were present sharing my fears joys and struggles, asking for insight and help knowing his truth. I agree the repetition must drive him crazy.. unless he perceives it like music like the beating of our heart or our regular breathing, even this to me is a mystery. I struggle to know where I fit in all this. but I continue searching. and every so often some insight comes forward in the silence of my contemplation in prayer.

Expand full comment
Mar 11Liked by David Roberts

I heard about the lords prayer in Aramaic for the first time last week at the celebration of my sister-in -law's life Friday March 3 2023.

Most grateful

Expand full comment
Mar 6Liked by David Roberts

Simple but profound. What a fantastic article. Thank you!

Expand full comment
Mar 5Liked by David Roberts

Superb advice thank you x

Expand full comment
Mar 5Liked by David Roberts

Thank you for the soul sanctifying nutrition gleaned from reading and listening.

Expand full comment

I find strength praying this prayer.

Psalm 51: 10-12 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Expand full comment